Forum:I'm leaving, and it's your fault

Forums: Index > Village Dump > I'm leaving, and it's your fault

Note: This topic has been unedited for 4206 days. It is considered archived - the discussion is over.

Be still, beating hearts. It is not I who am leaving but Llwy-ar-lawr. By way of history, she announced earlier that she was leaving for Illogicopedia. This followed her attempt to defend the honor of the Welsh from calumny done to it in the feature article Sheep.

She now announces she is leaving for another website that calls itself Uncyclopedia, for several manufactured reasons:

The Abuse Filter

Special:AbuseFilter/17 is supposedly a vile bit of Wikia dictatorship designed to prevent editors from putting external links in articles. Only, Wikia has had no input on the settings of any of our Abuse Filters. In the modern era, its settings are my works. What AF17 has done for a long time is placed, in boldface in Special:RecentChanges, a warning that a given edit Added link to external website. What happens then is that a human being reviews the edit. Most notably in the case where an editor wants us to view a funny YouTube video that he just saw, I revert it and often tell the editor, "Uncyclopedia is a place for original comedy creations, not a catalog of funny stuff available elsewhere on the Internet."

On 1-May, I changed the settings for AF17 from "Tag" (described above) to the current "Warn, Tag." All this means is that the editor herself is asked to reconsider the edit (and is shown the text of MediaWiki:abusefilter-warning-externallink, which I wrote). If the editor persists, the edit stands, though it is flagged for review as before.

I discussed with Llwy why this happened--it caught her as she was trying to link her Kitty Store to an earlier version at Illogicopedia--and she was at peace with it, or at least she did not think it was Wikia sorcery.

The Forum

Llwy also tried to create a Forum on the horrible disrepair of the Welsh-language Uncyclopedia, a franchise we found out doesn't even belong to Wikia. I moved it to her website--not because it was a link to an external wiki but because it was unwise to broadcast to all Uncyclopedians about a situation at some other website to which most of us are linguistically incapable of contributing--and indeed the resulting conversations identified the best course of action--and she seemed to understand and accept that act as well.

England's domination of Wales

She tries to use an analogy on her user page (which elsewhere she claims she blanked) of England banning the use of the Welsh language in Wales. Now Wikia is banning her use of external links on Uncyclopedia. Except, it's not.

---

Llwy is quick to give me profuse thanks for "constructive feedback" and other help, and quick to make clear that the problem is simply "because my temper and Wikia do not mix well." Only one nagging problem: Wikia is not a part of any of this.

Conclusion

Llwy has been lured to a competing website and fed a line that is at odds from what she previously knew, a line that leaving this website is a heroic blow against Wikia, the Corporate System, the One Percent, or what-have-you; including in cases where the only cited act is an act performed by me. This is as phony as the heroic narrative originally given to Uncyclopedians in January to stampede them off our website.

1. If you want to leave, leave; but don't blame Wikia or make geopolitical analogies to defend your actions.
2. It is evident that the impostor Uncyclopedia is still cherry-picking our good editors and still intent on sabotaging us; despite continuing manipulative rhetoric that Uncyclopedians are "a community" independent of website, so that when they try to harm Wikia it is all-of-us doing it.
3. It is preposterous that the purveyors of the fake Uncyclopedia still have Admin powers on this website. They directly, immediately, and in some cases financially, would benefit from its demise. Spıke Ѧ 00:16 6-May-13

conversation moved to Forum:Content warning, round 3

I too was sorry to hear that Llwy-ar-lawr has decided not to edit at this site. Our external link policy (which affected advertising a non-wikia welsh site) is in place for a reason, and part of that reason is Wikia. Unlike SPIKE, I do consider both sites to be Uncyclopedia divided, and I intend to edit both places, though there is more to do for me here than there, so I am on this site more than the other. When asked in the chatroom why I don't abandon this wiki, it is because I do not think it would benefit anyone in the long run for this site to become a vandalized mess like wackypedia has become, and I value the history of this site too much to see it abandoned outright. Besides, we rate higher on the search engines than the other site. A number of our writers have left, but some have stayed, and we are starting to get new people here who can form a new community. I do not think, given the numbers available on the other site, that some of our (former) admins stand to benefit financially from the demise of this site - if this site becomes abandoned, it does not follow that everybody will then go to the new site automatically, and even those who do go to the fork are not necessarily going to donate to support the fork. We are far more financially stable than they are at this point. Besides, the tastes of those who left for the fork and my own are very different - they seem to be much more into sexual and potty humor than I am, and their current front page feature is what I would describe as tasteless and lacking class. Unfortunately, more of the same is certain to follow in the future. I think some of the former admins can still work with this site, provided that they keep the goals of this site in mind, and keep to our policies of not promoting the fork on this website. Whether or not to deop admins that have chosen the fork over this site and no longer do anything here is a discussion for a different forum. -- Simsilikesims(♀GUN) Talk here. 01:45, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, today's feature on the fork is something that if it came here would be QVFD. Although it may be very funny - I don't get what the guy on the left is saying so I'm maybe missing the joke. If I'm not, and that was featured, it demeans uncyclopedia to a point that's over my limit. On the other hand, it is an artistic statement by the uncensored uncy about breaking limits. The title must mean something. Yes, it does lack class. Is that a good thing? I don't think so when I look at where music has fallen apart with rap becoming not only current but has been around so long that some of it is now old school - and it's an abomination of music and good taste. But as long as both sites continue to publish quality stuff as well, we won't be in danger of things averaging out at the level of today's feature on the fork. Aleister 2:03 6-5-'13

Apart from the general mandate from Wikia not to use its servers to make its traffic go away, Wikia had no involvement in the discussion of the Welsh website. Sannse confirmed that it was not a Wikia franchise. Llwy (see User:Llwy-ar-lawr/Celwyddoniadur going down the tubes) seems to have interpreted my generic message from AF17 warning against external links as a Wikia "scolding" about posting a link to her planned non-Wikia Welsh fork. To be clear, you will see my message even if you direct traffic to a Wikia wiki, or direct it to an Uncyclopedia using http instead of the double-bracket coding. None of that "scolding" means prohibition, except subject to review by our Admins (actually, by anyone who follows RecentChanges and patrols the site).

conversation moved to Forum:Content warning, round 3

I was quite surprised by Llwyr's comments and was sad to see her go. the sudden outburst I didn't think was very like her and I personally think that someone on the other site put those words into her mouth however I am not saying that the whole of the other site agrees with what she said.

I personally wouldn't go to the other site as I would need to set up an account all over again as none of my stuff is on there (noob) and I already have things featured here which aren't likely to get featured on there if they prefer to vote for something much more immature like what's on their front page.

I also think this site is better run thanks to the above three users, we aren't thinking of getting rid of VFH and we aren't likely to have no users when the current ones leave as more join our site (I think). Also this website upholds the true intentions of a wiklpedia parody and isn't full of memes and immature in-jokes.

To conclude: I'm staying and no one gonna make me move my bottom. Sir ScottPat (talk) VFH UnS NotM WotM WotY 11:22, May 6, 2013 (UTC)

I think I need to make a point here. External links are allowed. There are several methods that will attract AF-17, and a few that - by design - won't.

• http://cy.uncyclopedia.org.uk/wiki/ will attract AF-17
• <youtube> will attract the filter
• [[cy:]] will not attract the filter

That last option is an interwiki link. (Without the leading colon it would be an interlanguage link.) We have numerous non-Wikia links that remain in our iw links. These links have recently been denuded from the fork, which means that iw link wouldn't work over there. (This edit was not filtered.)                                • Puppy's talk page • 12:51 07 May 2013

Thought I should say something

I was rather surprised to find out at what length I was being discussed. Perhaps I shouldn't have. Anyway, here goes whatever.

I never 'left' for Illogicopedia. All I did was to move a rather random and incoherent article there, rewrite it in Uncyclopedia style and add a link to the ?pedia version for interest and insight. Not sure how this constitutes 'leaving'...?

About Wikia, what I said was a bit out of character and more than a little uncivil. Shocking as it may seem, nobody actually put words in my mouth. The comparison with Welsh Not was prompted by one thing, and one thing only: being the first 'victim' of the new abuse filter, and the first of many to be reprimanded for adding external links, is no more fair, and essentially no different, from being the only Welsh speaker of many in the class punished for displaying this ability by virtue of being the last one to be given the board. That was my point. I believe the analogy is accurate here.

The other reason I got fed up was the seeming emphasis on what's good for Wikia. It's not at all that I hate Wikia; rather, I couldn't care less about them. (Hence the inappropriateness of comparing them to the British establishment. My opinion of that, well, the less said about it the better.) Naturally, because I don't much care about Wikia, I get annoyed when I'm expected to conform to rules that seem to serve no purpose other than to help them out -- and besides, they don't seem to need help. I just dislike the tone of what I am being told. I don't want to get into a discussion of whether X wiki is 'better' than Y wiki and how I should be on X and be loyal to it and make sure to avoid Y. That just bugs me. I am impartial to wikis. If I am expected to be partial in my judgement of such and such wiki, I will just leave.

The third, and relatively minor, reason I left was that it's just plain frustrating to be on two sites that are essentially the same because you basically have to do everything twice.

Spike, I was quick to thank you because I wanted to make clear that I wasn't blaming you. You have always been very nice to me and I believed it was mainly because of Wikia that you complained about my external links. I just didn't want you to think you had made me leave.

I did blank my userpage. However I then replaced it with what you see now. I suppose I should blank it again -- but what I would really like to do, point a link to the Uncyclopedia (which is not an impostor, just a copy), is the very thing I can't do.

Finally, I did not leave because of anti-Welshism. That is just what I came here to fix. ❦ Llwy-ar-lawr • talk • contribs • 02:49, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Thought I should reply something

Llwy, I am not an admin but I think I have enough knowledge about some of the points you have raised here and that's why I want to answer you. In addition to this, if some of the admins sees what you have written so far, the debates might begin again and no one wants you to leave (honestly).

So:

1. Nobody is against you going to the Welsh wiki. The only problem is that, as Spike said, we are 'linguistically incapable of contributing to it' and, for the same reason, we can't admire your work (that's what the admins secretly think) there.
2. We understand your noble desire to defend Welsh pilgrims and fight against racism (well, anti-Welshism) on Uncyclopedia, but the point is that there isn't any. Well, maybe there are some jokes which can be considered anti-Welsh but that's the same situation as with all the other countries: we make jokes about everyone,
3. The first two points were mine, now I will try to speak from the point of view of the admins. What you basically said is that Wiki's policies (in addition to the tone in which they remind you about obeying them) piss you off and you actually don't care about Wiki. Well, if you are a user on Wiki, then you should care a little bit about it! The policies on Uncyclopedia are not made to help them to survive: they are made to keep this project great (well, maybe not for everyone). The external policies link is useful because it prevents people from posting random stuff from other websites, YouTube or other (Facebook is made for that). So, in a way, we can say that Uncyc wants people to develop their creativity and humor skills :). If you are a member of Wiki, then you should obey its policies which are not made in order to make people angry but to help this site improve itself.
4. Well, you said that you don't like the tone with which the rules are being told to you. You are not singular because I can name you a lot of people (take Dannyboy as the example) who didn't like it here neither but by now have managed to overcome their anger and are very good humor writers, reviewers, journalists, etc.

To conclude: The rules are made to be broken help everyone (not just the inventor of Uncyc) and to have a healthier community; I know you can't be at two different places at the same time but we don't want you to leave because of several misunderstandings; finally, we are not that racists!

Anton (talk) 19:15, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for trying to explain. No, the anti-Welshism isn't that major. Yes, the rules do seem to be to help Wikia. I added a link to an Illogicopedia article on the same subject and got told off for it. It was not a random thing I thought was funny but another article on another parody encyclopedia intended for interest value. I'm sure you didn't intend to imply this but I feel as if I am being told that my creativity and humor need work just because I added a stupid link to my article. Maybe they do need work but that's beside the point, isn't it? What I mean is that what I did is not obviously threatening to the community and I don't understand why I am not allowed to if it's not so Wikia can have more business. You see, I think of all wikis as equals and they should be able to link freely between each other (with the exception of Wikipedia; it shouldn't reference humour wikis too much). Illogicopedia is not that different from Uncyc, so why can't they link to each other?

I care enough about Wikia to be concerned if it's genuinely in trouble. If it really didn't have enough users I might make more of an effort to follow its rules on links. But in the present state of things I'm simply not interested in giving Wikia help it doesn't need. I am also not interested in hearing about how one Uncyc is better than the other. I have heard a lot of statements to that effect and it really turns me off. The non-Wikia mirror is not the 'dark side', an 'impostor' or any of that. Let's not judge a book by its cover. It may indeed be worse but that statement should be based on the content of its articles and the behavior of its users, something I haven't looked into enough to have a clear view of things.

In spite of the relevant stereotype I do not want to argue, so I think I won't be discussing this much further. I have made my points. The external link policy is being applied too broadly for its ostensible purpose. The abuse filter is fine but warning me on my talk page was not. This is my opinion, at least. You may see it another way. If anyone decides that my link was all right after all I will re-add it to a section titled 'external links'. Otherwise I will give up and make sure never, ever to add external links to anything. After all, it really doesn't matter that much. ❦ Llwy-ar-lawr • talk • contribs • 23:57, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for checking in. The only thing missing: Again, your gripe is with me, including for "telling you off" on your talk page. I say I did not tell you off, any more than I am telling you off here, but explaining something that you seemed to accept. And I'll explain it again: We want to see your comedy creations, not what someone else did elsewhere, nor even what you did elsewhere, though you are free to reference your portfolio on your user page. That policy statement is my interpretation of the more general Wikia policy, especially as we are living here without paying rent, and the thing that keeps it and us going is preserving its traffic. It would be nice if everything were free (no, it really wouldn't) and if your Ford dealer could admit you'd really be better off driving a Hyundai, but this is the real world, and our current arrangement beats paying a subscription fee. Sections on external links I savage as often as I do the toilet-pun "Discographies." Spıke Ѧ 00:23 9-May-13

Thought I should ask something

Is there anybody who actually likes the English?                                • Puppy's talk page • 08:26 08 May 2013

Funnily enough there is. (and I'm half Scottish!(Who likes the Scots?(Well funnily enough...))) Sir ScottPat (talk) VFH UnS NotM WotM WotY 20:35, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

PS - Actually scrap that I'll pretend I'm fully Scottish. Yeah who likes those stupid English people? Sir ScottPat (talk) VFH UnS NotM WotM WotY 20:37, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Llwy's latest edit of her user page says she can be found on the Welsh wiki. She will be a very big fish in a very small pond. Like everyone else, she is welcome to edit here. Anton, Dannyboy is not an example of someone who worked well with the rules. After early months of self-nominating, demanding honors and concessions, and making a handful of edits without a shred of humor, ScottPat drew Dannyboy into useful collaboration on the first UnSignpost of the new era. Then Dannyboy wrote the unfunny User:Dannyboy1209/Melon, edit-warred with Simsie over whether it should be in userspace, and went back to his own ways and I banned him. Spıke Ѧ 21:24 8-May-13

PS--Tonight the former (Llwy) returns to edit the latter (Melon) and, as Professor Peter Schickele would say, it is "an hysteric return." Spıke Ѧ 23:30 8-May-13

Well. I didn't know Dannyboy has really been banned (sorry, Scott, I thought it was a joke). I said that he is an example of someone who had problems with the rules but now actually contributes (well he helped Scott with the newspaper). Llwy, I has never said that you lack creativity or anything, as you may notice, I have only said good things about your work. Anton (talk) 16:21, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

Me, me, me, me

Do any of you Jamokes believe in writing section headings that actually describe the section's contents? Spıke Ѧ 00:26 9-May-13

Where's the fun in that?                                • Puppy's talk page • 12:45 09 May 2013

More points to make

The concern with linking to other websites of a similar nature is that it draws traffic away from this site. Having said that, there is no issue in doing so in your user page, as long as it's clear that the link is going to an external site. Linking from an article to a similar article in a different language is fine, and encouraged in the interlanguage links - of which Cyrdlingmilk is one of these links. Using your user page to point to other homes is fine, but using it to say “this is better/real/etc.” is a concern.

Embedding YouTube videos is debatable in terms of it's merit to an article. The reason for Spike cracking down on them - as I had been previously - is that embedding yt into pages that aren't relevant at all - such as Spambox - increases the videos Page rank on search engines, and therefore artificially inflates its popularity. Which means people add videos that are original but unrelated to pages which detracts from the value of the page it's on. Some pages, such as Unfomercial:Playstation, are all about the video. In this case the video was an Uncyclopedian production for the purposes of an Uncyclopedian article. Likewise there was a forum linking to a video put forward as our anthem. That was not an original production, but suited the site.

Insulting any nationality, religion, species, creed, etc., is part of the purpose of the site.

Spike's “warning” on that talk page was polite and gave a small explanation. Wether you like him or not - which up to that point I thought all the discourses seemed to be mixed in with mutual respect - is immaterial. He went there to explain and educate, not cajole or berate.

As for users leaving the site - it happens, and having been here long enough I have difficulty being over concerned about it. I don't think it's viable for the leaver to create a forum, but if they do the forum is generally treated with the respect it deserves. Creating a forum for another user that has departed seems to be a waste of time and energy. The person who has left generally doesn't care, and those that remain usually just keep going on anyway.

Llwy, if you are leaving, bon voyage. If you're staying, welcome back.

Beyond that, UN:N.                                • Puppy's talk page • 12:44 09 May 2013

Less points to make

I'm putting this here because I can't for the life of me figure out a better spot. Spike - how the fuck do you propose "we" are "cherry-picking" "your" best editors? Just let me know and I'll start doing it immediately. The last I looked, the ones we would like on the "renegade site" - or whatever you happen to call it - are ones who can make up their own minds without any help. Also, what's this "sabotage" deal about? -- Style  Guide 03:55, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

A better spot for criticism of my opinion would have been my talk page, but there is no soapbox there for you to stand on and broadcast. It is biased to suggest that anyone who adopts your conclusion has made up his own mind, while anyone who stays here has been brainwashed. What is sabotage? For example, a user who proclaims on your talk page that you have left Uncyclopedia ("They are the worst") to, last night, appeal to Zim ulator that you are pursuing his brand of humor elsewhere and invite him to chat. In the above context, this is flagrant use of Wikia resources to harm Wikia, and has resulted in your one-month ban. Spıke Ѧ 13:22 17-May-13

A one-month ban? Now that's quite a bit more like ... well, I say no more, for fear of suffering a similar fate.

About what Mulitiliteralist said, for me the fork has actually been less receptive. For example, my translation of fr:43 - a decent enough article, and the English version can still be found here - got deleted due to supposedly being a 'work in progress', and I (stupidly) said I would put it back if it were not moved to my userspace as I requested. It was so moved, but I was threatened with a ban if I recreated even one little deleted article (of course). But you can see why I am starting to think that Wikia Uncyc is friendlier, aside from the fuss over links and mirrors, and easier to write articles for. I'm surprised that Multiliteralist came to the opposite conclusion. ❦ Llwy-ar-lawr • talk • contribs • 15:30, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

I don't appreciate the "Spike will ban me if I speak my mind" polemic. Multiliteralist spoke his mind ad nauseam on my talk page. I cannot promise you this website will be more receptive to your work or that its Admins will not strike you as tyrants; but production of funny stuff is the goal, it would not be achieved if Admins mistake defiance for persistent bad faith, and I have no indication that any do. The only Terms-of-Use issue is using Wikia's resources to send its traffic elsewhere. Spıke Ѧ 17:26 17-May-13

Unfortunately your point does not come across because you did ban Multiliteralist in the end. And from what I can see he was acting in good faith, if pushing it a little (yes, Terms of Use, but still). It's true, Spike; most wikis are like that: if you speak your mind uncarefully, or even carefully - or so you thought -, and the admins disagree, you will be banned. No need to deny it because it's just a fact of wiki life that we must all learn to accept if we want to edit wikis. I still edit Wikipedia knowing full well that, if I spoke my mind freely about a number of topics I won't bother to list, I would probably be banned. I would be banned for content disputes, disruptive editing and maybe even incivility. But my only goal would have been to improve the encyclopedia, as it is my only goal here (except, of course, for having fun).

However, we're not supposed to admit this flaw in how wiki administration works. We tell ourselves that there was a good reason for banning each and every banned user. Sometimes there clearly is; sometimes it's in the eye of the beholder...and, I'm sure, sometimes it is entirely unjustified.

Finally, I can't make out why you're talking about promising me that this site will be more receptive. I just said it was. And the admins don't strike me as tyrants. No; we are all acting in good faith here, but the problem is that we don't agree on what constitutes good faith, and probably never will. ❦ Llwy-ar-lawr • talk • contribs • 20:36, May 17, 2013 (UTC)